So I wake up this morning doing my usual reading of blogs. Two posts ago, I posted a list of known Canadian EF churches/Masses for the Immaculate Conception. One of them was in Toronto in Scarborough. I found this on a EF/TLM blog of a Toronto choirmaster, Vox Cantoris (my commentary in red text cause it's time for my ranting and raving):
".... "Trads" can be a nasty group and give the cause a bad name. Last night in Toronto a beautiful Mass was held for the Feast of the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary. It was a Missa Solemnis at St. Lawrence the Martyr in Toronto. The three Sacred Ministers were joined by three priests "in choro." The Servers were excellent as usual and the organist and choir were splendid. It's the cranks that show up that are the problem. ...."
Oh no, what the heck did people do to once again perpetuate the stereotype of the "angry traddie???"
1. Look friends, many people that come to theses Masses are first timers. If they don't read the note in the liturgical handout about not singing the Pater Noster and they sing it, so what? But when you "trads" all go sssshhhhhh what you did was actually a vile intrusion on the Holy Mass. They acted in singing out of innocent ignorance, you acted out of rudeness, malice and what you did was a debasement of the liturgy. Stop it! What you "trads" did was a liturgical abuse.Nice going you crumdugeons. You just further enhanced the whole myth (now sad reality in this case) that the TLM is cold, cruel, and malicious with a obey and serve the master mentality, devoid of love and beauty; the opposite is the Novus Ordo is a welcoming Mass where the Love of Jesus is truly present and why the old Mass was disposed. THE MASS IS NOT YOURS ALONE!!! THE MASS WAS FOR EVERYONE!!!!
2. Gothic Vestments are NOT NOVUS ORDO. They are called "Gothic" for a reason. In fact, the conical style "Novus Ordo" vestment as you refer it is actually of more ancient use than the "Roman" or "Fiddleback." Now, stop the whining about these little things and smarten up.Look, as a young buck, I don't give a rat's patooty on this. As long as it's not a Rainbow or Tye Dye coloured vestment and ultra modernized, and you stick to the Rubrics and wear the proper coloured vestment that day, so be it. But don't be a liturgical stickler. If you see a TRULY EGREGIOUS liturgical abuse (e.g. ad libbing, wrong material for confection of the Eucharist ...) then whine and complain to the highest authorities. Plus most parishes threw out their 1962 stuff a long time ago, including my personal anguish, altar servers' surpices and cassocks. You don't like the vestments? Then donate to Una Voce or wherever appropriate from your savings/pensions and help the organization purchase the "Proper" vestments if you are so cheezed about that!
3. Artwork that shows the Blessed Virgin Mary's hair in paintings of the Immaculate Conception are not "Vatican II" and do not indicate that I am a "modernist." Until the puritanical Victorian 19th century with its feminine featured Jesus and its burka clad young Virgin and the über-puritanical attitude of you 21st century "trads" the Immaculate Conception was portrayed as a pre-pubescent girl, a young virgin and without a veil as in the post two below. This is a more recent rendition of the style of the many in the same style from the 15th century onward.
This is a little above my "paygrade" to comment on.
4. A Read Mass (Missa Lecta) with Dialogue is not a "Novus Ordo" invention. Nor is standing for the Pater Noster and the Postcommunion a "Novus Ordo" invention. The Church has desired that the people respond to the priest even though you have your preference for absolute silence. This is not where we are now or where the restoration will be. So you can drop this paranoia about NovusOrdoIsms. This is not a liturgical experiment or innovation. Read the rubrics!It's allowed in the Chruch Laws surrounding the 1962 Missal, so read your Church Documents, pre 1983 Code in Canon Law and the one after it, and rulebooks before you get in a tizzy over this. You can surely find these things on the Internet. The Vatican has a website you know at www.vatican.va/ . If not, get over it!
You would think that these "trads" would be overjoyed with what has been happening since Pope Benedict XVI issued Summorum Pontificum and the recent Universae Ecclesiae.
As an example, when was the last time a Solemn High Mass in the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite was offered in the Archdiocese of Toronto before last night? How about over 40 years ago! Some "trads" are really an offering up.
Now it's time for me to make a crack about this from a young bucks perspective. Summorum Pontificum and Ecclesiae Unitatem were great gifts to the Church. For years the TLM/EF was suppressed by unruly bishops and priests, manupulated by the new cathechesis. Worse off, one of the reasons it was supressed was that it was "too repressive." Now that it's flourishing, do you really want to ruin this good thing?
Look around you at the Modern Church. Yes there are some strides going on in Post-Vatican II, like WYDs (minus the musical acts and other oddities) that are bringing youth back to Christ, well run youth ministries when headed by somewhat traditional or well-meaning youth ministers, and even more poignant Catholic productions like Fr. Barron's "Catholicism" Series. However, as a whole, look at your institutional Church! The majority of parishes have almost enitrely elderly people filling the pews, and very few people over 13+ years occupying those pews and even filling the ministries within individual parishes. Youth want to be around other youth to start with. If the bodies aren't there, the average youth won't come. Furthermore, many are given crap catechesis in organized parish CCD/cathechesis programs or ther separate/Catholic school systems (and might I add that in Ontario, the GOVERNMENT funds the separate school systems. What they say, goes, like those equity policies forcing GSAs to be implemented.) Much of it is "Jesus loves everyone" garbage. Furthermore, the last 2 generations of clergy, priests, parents and teachers, haven't taught this generation what the Mass is all about. So many are lost to the sea of our secularized, immoral culture. Of the few that remain "in the churches", those youth are going just because it's a family "tradition" or until they get out of Mommy and Daddy's roof. Trust me on that! When I went to University, I stopped going to Mass whenever I was away from my parents.
Furthermore, YES! Our generation is getting it. We are seeing the devestation of not only our secular culture, but WE ARE WAKING UP to the crap that has been insterted, unintentionally and intentionally in the insitutional Church, including its liturgy. And guess what, WE ... WANT ... MORE! We are realizing that many Novus Ordos are done blandly, and leave us not spiritually satisfied, though we do understand that when the Mass is done with proper form, matter, and intent by a priest with valid AND licit faculties, it is a Sacramentally valid Mass and the Eucharist is confected there. So guess what, a few of us are starting to look deeper into our faiths, learning our Cathecheism and moral theology, doing Church retreats with various organzations and such, and even partaking in ministries in our parishes (and you can thank WYDs and youth ministries for that somewhat too!). A few of us are even venturing out TO PURPOSELY FIND the Latin Mass to satisfy our spiritual souls and be in the presence of true Catholic Theology and prayer.
SEVERE RANT WARNING! As you should know, many people only know of the 1962 EF as "That mass our Grandparents went to and got killed by the Church." YOU SHOULD BE BLOODY THANKFUL WHEN AN UNDER 40 STEPS INTO YOUR EF!!!! Because the Catholic Church in modernized countries is dying and there will be no bodies to replace you and the others when in 10-20 years the Lord calls you back to Heaven (if you are in the state of Sanctiying grace that is.) Many don't know what the heck a veil is, nor any Latin period. WHEN YOU TELL A YOUNG PERSON TO SHUT UP THE WAY YOU DID, CONGRATULATIONS!!!!! YOU JUST LET A POTENTIAL NEW PERSON TO THE EF BE SCARED OFF AND PERPETUATED THE MTYH THAT THE 1962 MASS IS FOR OLD PEOPLE ONLY!!!! You just might have even given Satan a little chuckle, becuase he bloody hates the Latin Mass. He LOVES modernism and especially, he is the father of all lies and deception. He probably even did a jig when the Novus Ordo came to existence, knowing the liberal clergy had misinterpreted much of Vatican II and didn't execute what was meant to be the true Vatican II Novus Ordo Mass. Better, he even loves it when the young are kept from experiencing such a treasure in the EF, because then they will remain in the spiritual fog they are in, continue to be "CINO" Catholics and maybe he'll even get a mortal sin or two, and hence their soul as well.
Not every young Catholic gets access to family, friends, or a traditional priest, who will tell them certain sins are mortal or direct them to the Catechism, and had they not been at the TLM/EF, they may never get another opportunity. In fact, priests who study certain theologies even tell people that there is "no gradation of sin." That or possibly the social network of that young person will DETER them from going to the Masses and work against them, thus playing unwitting agents in killing the person's soul. YOU could have been the part of that newtork to provide that person with a role model or friend who would keep them at the Latin Mass. And guess what? Most people in their twenties are any one or more of the following: atheist, agnostic, dabling in New Age/spiritual garbage, Church hating, getting smashed on alcohol and drugs and posting thier escapades on facebook, having pre-marital and sex and contracepting to the hilt, and being self-centered and greedy and money/wealth focused. Many of these young people are Catholic (well likely in name only) and if they do go to Mass, how many of them are aware of how to approach the Eucharist reverently? That is in the state of grace and not Mortal sin, and appropriately dressed? Is the Novus Ordo clergy and your Mass doing this for your son/daughter/granddaughter/son? Look probably a number of them are just poorly cathecized and don't know better, but you are getting the idea right? Wouldn't you like your son/daughter/grandson/granddaughter to come back to her faith and take a modicum of self-respect for herself and for the Lord upon receiving Him at Mass?
Furthermore, When you act in the manner Vox has described above, you give us the message "this is an exclusive club and you're not welcome." We see enough of that garbage at our Novus Ordo parishes with Fr. "Liberal theologian" and his army of liberal theology/weakly catechized Church ladies (and men) who are the lectors, cantors, ushers, etc. and form their own cliques in the parish, making it uncomfortable for the Laity. In some cases, they don't even allow new people to become part of the parish in those ways. KEEP THE DAMN POLITICS OUT OF THE LATIN MASS!!! We young people especially hate workplace/Church politics. It destroys the very message of the Gospel and shows us hypocrisy. We've seen enough of that with our goverments and even our family and friends. At least let the TLM be a safe haven from that spritually!!!! I'll tell you what we young people want. We want our tradition. We want to truly be spiritually nourished in a way that the Novus Ordo often fails to deliver for a number of reasons, despite its sacramental validity. We want to be part of a body of believers who actually TRY to walk the walk and talk the talk when it comes to their Catholic faith and aren't CINOs! We want good and theologically sound cathechesis, not that fluff and puff "lovey-dubby" crap of the 60's! We're tired of the "Culture of death" and our friends who are acting like total idiots with their physical AND spiritual lives. We don't want to be them and heck we actually care what happens when we die and Jesus plays judge and jury. We don't want that guilty verdict that sends us to Hell. And the TLM is what will help us there. So please, cut the anger, hatred, shyness etc. and please, introduce and welcome a young person to the TLM. And gradually get us to follow the rules. Believe me, we are smart and adaptable if you give us the chance. We might even carry how we act in the TLM to our lives and change it for the better in dress and attitude! BRING US TO THE LORD!!!!!!
Finally spent, YCRCM.
Okay, whoa. That must have been even louder than the shushing at St. Lawrence's. Could we not all just roll our eyes at the cranky people and go with the cool kids for a gin and tonic?
ReplyDeleteVavoom!
ReplyDeleteAnd welcome to the battle my Young Canadian Roman Catholic Male Brother!
ReplyDeleteWe youth just have more spunk in our steps and voices Seraph. When I say it, I get blunt! No sugar coating here. Gotta be an advocate for the new up and comers just discovering the TLMs/EFs.
ReplyDeleteBut personally Seraph, I just hate how our current Church has left out the post Confirmation age - over 40 generation and they aren't filling the pews anymore. They have so much against them and have been trained to be so-selfish and "feelings" conscious that any gesture offends them and they leave and never come back again. So we gotta get it in people's heads that you gotta show them gentle love to get them to the TLM in a culture so self-absorbed and an "institutional" church so pro-Novus Ordo like it's the best thing since sliced bread.
Though those gin and tonics with the cool kids sound pretty nice.
Thank you Vox. You and other bloggers like Fr. Z, Seraph, the bigwigs of Catholic Answers and such inspired me to do this, and glad to join the battle.
ReplyDeleteI agree that certain attitudes that are present in some Tridentine Mass's and Parishes are harmful. Sometimes it does a lot of harm. However, let's keep things in perspective. Being shooshed at Mass isn't something to have a rant and rave about. Is that how far we've come, that to be quieted at Mass [and act of charity in fraternal correction] is cause for leaving the Mass in a huff and vowing never to attend again? Don't blow this out of proportion. When was the last time anybody ever shooshed anybody at an NO Mass, with all the talking, guitars, drums and tambourines? A lot more shooshing is perhaps a good thing.
ReplyDeleteAlso, I find the attitude expressed in the following to be highly, highly arrogant and problematic:
YOU SHOULD BE BLOODY THANKFUL WHEN AN UNDER 40 STEPS INTO YOUR EF!!!!
Friend, if you believe the above to be true, you need to examine your reasons for attending the Tridentine Latin Mass. That reeks of spiritual pride; it is a vile attitude. It is only you who should be thankful that you get to attend the Tridentine Latin Mass at all.
I appreciate your good spirit and fervor; as well as your candidness. It is good. Keep it in check though (this is something we all must do). Otherwise, you may start biting the hand that feeds.
God bless,
Tom (NewsTheMan on CAF).
Saw your post on Catholic Answers.
ReplyDeleteI'm an avowed traditionalist and I've never seen this sort of "temple police" behavior thou hast spoken of. My experience as a year of regular EF Mass attendance (occasional before that) has been a positive one. Lots of young folks like myself. Never have I seen such rudeness.
In fact, the only things I saw was at my very first EF four years ago, I sat behind a father verbally abusing his massive family (almost said something, but didn't: a regret). More so, the only person to correct me in Mass was my own mother! Who told me not to sing along with Father during the Pater Noster!
I'm sorry this was a bad experience, but we aren't all like this.
Try to focus on the Mass, not the other people. It's for Jesus, not people watching. But I do understand your need to vent.
It's sad how often trads seem to be looking for something to get outraged about.
ReplyDeleteCharming Disarray. Welcome to YCRCM. I know I haven't been active as of late, but I finally am "checking" up on things. After checking a little of your blogging to make sure you weren't an anti-trad, and not violating the rules of my blog, your blogging makes your comment seem genuine and I decided why not post your response and reply to you.
ReplyDeleteI can somewhat understand where you are coming from. I read your background post on the CD blog here: http://charmingdisarray.blogspot.com/2012/01/just-give-feminism-thing-rest-already.html. Everyone else do take a look also to see TC and TPs done wrong. I see that you unfortunately encountered the "dark side of traditionalism" via the utterly stupid pants arguments and veiling. This tends to come up more with the more extreme "right wing" components of traditionalism e.g. SSPX, SSPV, independent chapels and communities or bitter crankypants types. This is one part of TC I am ashamed of and I'm sorry that it has soured your opinion of the movement via poor and proper traditional manliness of us men, and your enjoyment of the Extraordinary Form. I also see other things in the post too and maybe it influenced your repsonse. If desired, we can talk about your post or continue this posting here at YCRCM via my gmail.
Back to your response, I was not looking at this just to have a random "speckled-filled nutty" as Fr. Z would say. If you had read through the entire post, I expressed my sentiments about these actions by the shusshers from the perspective of a young Catholic male who actually participates in the EF. I wrote it because those in the community have to "get with the program" that if we are to help bring spiritual salvation to my lost generation, they have to stop acting in a similar manner to those you've encountered in your feminist post and express that theological virtue of charity at the natural level.
ReplyDeleteMy fellow young men and women of my generation and possibly yours if you fit in here (80's - millenials) are falling away from the Church, are Christmas and Easter Catholics whose families are NOT practicing the faith in full or teaching it as was implied in the sacrament of marriage, or even getting sworn in by other Christian and Traditional sects. Furthermore you are probably aware yourself of the poor job the institutional church as a whole is doing to keep young people in the Church. Many things are not working, from possibly questionable liturgies with Praise and Worship or "popish" music, to poor and often heretical catechesis from our teachers, clergy, and lay theologians, to a host of other things.
Problem is we are also dealing with a society that says "self-indulgence" and feelings are key. So right off the bat, you've got that to contend with and most youth aren't sticking around weekly for Mass, rather they are doing ... (insert activity here). Furthermore, when we luckily get youth to go to the TLMs, as newbies (maybe with their parents), they are nervous, don't know what to do, or innocently may carry out their Novus Ordo practices. You expressed yourself you lost some interest in traditional Catholicism because of the stuck-up-ness and elitist (and sexist) attitudes of those "people." Well guess what, it came out in full force at that EF Mass. If there is anything that will make an already feeling- centered young person whose possibly heard that the EF/TLM is the Mass with "strictness and coldness" attached to it, this is the kind of action that will drive them away for a good time, if not, permanently from the EF/TLM, only solidyfying the rumors into actual fact. Not everyone has a good parish near them with a good crowd of faithful Catholics or an orthodox priest who knows their job, as a general of the Church, to carry out its mission in "the salvation of souls" .
So CD, Yes I'm throwing a nutty, but I'm doing it because it dumps sorrow onto my heart to know my fellow youth are losing their souls in today's society, and the world is stripping them from the Church they were brought into worse than ever. If the TLM has an even remote change of changing their material and spiritual lives, that's why I am upset, because that lifeline is being stripped from them by ignorant and rude people. To me, this is not just "something to get outraged about".